Jeff
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On the article Add a Punchline to Our Doghouse Cartoon
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On the article Watchdog Group: Motives in DuPage Board Chair Cronin’s Hirings?
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
7:43 pm on Tuesday, April 16, 2013
ReplyI have given this some thought and I think I have a solution. Unheard, clearly we have a disconnect so if you could respond to these questions as concisely and honestly as possible I think we might be able to put this behind us.
1. What is the meaning of term ‘property’ in the Wheaton city ordinance on discharging a firearm?
2. Is it legal to discharge a firearm in a scenario other than defending your own life in Wheaton?
3. Did I ever say hunting and/or trapping coyotes is legal in Wheaton? If so please provide the text.
4. Have you ever lied or are you being disingenuous in the context of this debate?
Seriously though, you will still get credit if you do not answer the last one. I too have lied, just not in the context of this debate but I know the answer for you. I do think offering your view on these topics would help out a lot and probably clear up a lot of confusion on my end though. -
On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
5:44 pm on Tuesday, April 16, 2013
It seems painfully obvious to me from unheards’ comments (below) we were at one point debating when it is legal to discharge a firearm in Wheaton. The contention by unheard was that ONLY if your life is in immediate danger are you allowed to discharge a firearm which I demonstrated is incorrect with the Wheaton city ordinance clearly distinguishing between person and property. So, after unheard began to realize that she was likely wrong and given the obvious embarrassment after rudely claiming to be more knowledgeable than others in local gun laws, she is now insisting that the debate was whether or not it is legal to hunt coyotes in Wheaton.
Let us assume for the moment this is true - who was it she was it she was actually debating hunting and trapping with and why does she think she is debating with me? Apparently unsure, err.., unheard likes debating with people that agree with her on hunting and trapping (see my comments as well below). Either that or she is trying to find her way out of a face losing situation? Nah, couldn’t be.
Even after my comments, I get the following response clearly attempting to divert attention from the legal firearm discharge issue and insinuating that we are somehow arguing the trapping and removal of coyotes despite my ‘repeated’ comments to the contrary.
I thought it might be useful to post this so everyone has a fair view of the issue being argued. "Trapping and removing coyotes is legal with a Nuisance Animal Removal Permit
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
5:43 pm on Tuesday, April 16, 2013
Comments from Unheard:
1. "As Resurrected said, the only time shooting is allowable is if you are defending your life from another human being."
2. "These citizens had to have it explained numerous times, in every way, shape and form that unless their life was in danger or they worked in law enforcement they certainly could not shoot in Wheaton."
3. "When the law says defending your property that means only if your life is at risk."
Comments from Jeff:
1. “People hunting coyotes for population control (basically hunting) I understand not being permitted but you clearly do not know your own law.”
2. “Baiting animals and shooting them as a form of population control is clearly a different subject as they do not pose an imminent threat to your safety or the safety of your pet.”
After she began to realize she was mistaken…
3. “Again with the hunting and trapping and you know this is not what we are talking about - you are scope shifting to try and divert the discussion away from the topic.”
4. “With a high concentration of humans I understand restrictions on discharging firearms and am not disagreeing with them in the slightest. I certainly do not want a bunch of people walking around the streets and playgrounds where I live hunting coyotes but that was never the point of this debate.”
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
5:40 pm on Tuesday, April 16, 2013
Now to your point that taking a legal action that has some associated risk makes it “not viable” and "effectively illegal". Do you stand behind this statement and are you open to debating it? I want to give you the opportunity to think about it so that you aren't insisting we were talking about hunting and trapping after a couple of posts. I think your primary motivation in commenting here is attempting to defend unheard but if want to take the same path as she did I will gladly help you along it. You are stating that it is legal to discharge a firearm in defense of your property however you then you go on to say that given the likelihood that such an event would result in the death of a child it is “effectively illegal”. The obvious assumption here is that a child being killed as a result of someone defending their property with a firearm is the likely outcome. For the record, dog attacks are quite common (forget Coyotes, what about your neighbors Rottweiler) and we can both play the hypothetical scenario game but it doesn’t change the legality of the action hence is not illegal. Here are some - what if he is attempting to save his own life as he is being attacked by dogs and hits the child? What if he is trying to save the child’s life from a pack of dogs and hits the child? We can come up with scenarios like this all day long but, the fact is, discharging the firearm is most certainly legal and most certainly viable. ]
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
5:39 pm on Tuesday, April 16, 2013
I have a difficult time taking any of your comments to heart regarding who she is or her behavior based on what she has demonstrated here.
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
5:39 pm on Tuesday, April 16, 2013
If you actually take the time to read my posts we could have saved a lot of time at least with regard to the back and forth between you and I. Oh well, I initially stated that my scenario was nitpicky (READ IT) however it was at this point that unheard continued to insist that under no circumstances could one discharge a firearm unless their immediate life is in danger. The debate regarding the actual law then began where I demonstrate that it clearly distinguishes between person and property which I do not consider to be ‘splitting hairs’. If what you say is true regarding unheard and her positive role in Wheaton on the coyote issue then probably best she learns it from me before making a fool of herself there publicly. The subsequent comments that ensued (ballooning what should be an open and shut case into an ongoing debate) I will include in a follow-up post in response to unheard a bit later. I will also include the multiple references in my posts where I state that I have no doubt hunting, trapping coyotes is illegal and that I actually agree it should be. Fact is unheard is trying her best to back out now and trying to re-scope the debate to save face. If she would have come to the forum respectfully and with a shred of humility it wouldn't be so hard for her to accept that she was mistaken but she is in the corner and the floor is painted.
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
3:06 pm on Monday, April 15, 2013
You know you are wrong and I know you are wrong and that is all that really matters. You cannot erase the post history above so trying to take the discussion in a new direction isn't going to work. You opened your mouth, were caught spreading fallacies, and I called you on it. You insisted that only when your life is in danger can you discharge a firearm them tried to say that property in the ordinance meant you could only do so on your property. You can sidestep and ignore the content of my posts all you want, you are still wrong. Trying to back out and say we were debating whether it is legal to hunt coyotes without a permit is completely disingenuous and deep down you know it which is why my comments bother you so much. All of us are wrong from time to time, it's just that some of us (i.e. you) happen to be wrong more often than others. Take a step back, deep breath and try to post comments on subjects you actually know something about. Take care.
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On the article Governor Quinn: Local Communities Should Have Control in Conceal Carry Law
Jeff
2:48 pm on Monday, April 15, 2013
ReplyUnheard - you know you are wrong and I know you are wrong - that is really all that matters. :) You are backtracking and sidestepping at every opportunity completely ignoring the content of posts. The debate is between you and I and your insistence that, under no circumstances, is it legal to shoot a coyote in Wheaton. I proved you wrong but your mouth is trying to get out of the position it put you in. You are comical. Now you are trying to confuse the issue further and redirect the debate to hunting and trapping which nobody was debating so as not to lose face... Too late.
Jeff
6:13 am on Thursday, April 18, 2013
OK, OK, I'll buy you the Beggin' Strips. I'm sorry I bought you the generic dog biscuits.